Director and podcaster Poppy Jay: "I think South Asian women are so starved of content"

For many, you'll know Jay for her signature no-nonsense co-hosting of Brown Girls Do It Too, a multi award-winning podcast that she helmed with Rubina Pabani (and formerly with Roya Eslami) for six hilarious and informative seasons.

Known affectionately as the Shagony Aunties, Jay and Pabani talked openly about sex, relationships, dating and everything in between, providing a relatable and much-needed podcast aimed at tackling 'taboo' subjects within South Asian culture.

Now, Jay and Pabani are taking Brown Girls Do It Too on the road once again, for a month-long stint at Edinburgh Fringe, no less. Having done a series of 'work in progress' and preview shows at London's Soho Theatre, Brown Girls Do It Too: Mama Told Me Not to Come is taking the stage at, arguably, one of the greatest celebrations and hubs of art, comedy and culture.

Taking to Soho Theatre was already a feat worth celebrating for Jay, who underlines the fact that it's "new territory," because brown and Black women aren't often seen in these spaces to begin with.

It's still a nerve-wracking experience, though, and as Jay puts it: “I’m absolutely s**ting myself," underlining that although they've already taken to the stage with their show twice beforehand: "Edinburgh is a complete different kettle of fish."

“Brown Girls Do It Too, out of everything in my career, is probably the thing that gives me the most excitement. It sounds really lame to say, but it’s the most impactful work that I do. It pays the least, but it’s always the way, isn’t it?" she tells me.

The stage production of the podcast is an extension of what they did on the airwaves, this time employing sketches, acting and singing (which Jay does "badly", in her opinion) to celebrate "brown British women, genital warts and all," according to its synopsis.

"Theatre is not really a welcome space for people from minority backgrounds. Why would they pay that price when they could hear us talk for free on a podcast platform? In true Asian style, we’re going to be A*, give a show, a dance, give jazz hands. It’s just been really interesting to see how the show has changed and evolved," Jay states proudly.

It's also "an homage to Goodness Gracious Me," Jay explains, talking of the "seminal" '90s sketch show. "It’s sad but I still think that’s the one show that really represented us. You wouldn’t get a Goodness Gracious Me now. Would it work? I don’t know."

As for the Brown Girls Do It Too podcast, that came about much in the style of assembling the Spice Girls, Jay jokes, settling on actually being more akin to (the equally as brilliant) Atomic Kitten or Sugababes.

Having met Pabani and Eslami in the BBC canteen, the trio clearly had the chemistry needed for the podcast's first six episodes. But Jay knew she'd likely only be seeing her co-hosts once a year and bid them farewell, knowing that BBC Asian Network weren't going to pick Brown Girls Do It Too back up for a second season.

But that all changed when they bagged two British Podcast Awards, which "completely changed our trajectory". Despite the success, and returning for a second season (without Eslami), Brown Girls Do It Too was still subject to its fair share of trolling.

"They only recommissioned us because of this podcast. It was really interesting sitting on the BBC Asian Network because I think their listeners [are] older and a lot more conservative, so we got a lot of backlash, we got a lot of trolls," Jay says.

"It was just really interesting seeing how our own community took us. It was young girls from the South Asian community, from the minority ethnic community who were like ‘These girls are talking in a way that I don’t even talk to my mates this way’. In all honesty, we spoke the way we did because we thought nobody was going to listen."

The trolling was like water off a duck's back for Jay, mostly, but it did impact her on a more personal level. Two of her sisters stopped speaking to her after an episode about masturbation started going viral, with Jay saying of it: "When the trolling is happening from someone I know, it really affects me.”

Having a podcast focused on sex and relationships wasn't a revolutionary concept at the time, but having one headed up by South Asian women clearly proved to be. "Something Rubina says is that there were so many sex and relationship podcasts when we came out, it just felt radical for us because it’s such a taboo in our community," Jay explains.

"Even though there’s like a billion Indian people and we must be having sex, it’s such a stigma and such a taboo. To even have two – initially it was three – of us talk about sex in the way that we did, it was really disgusting and candid."

The podcast was clearly a hit, but what it's given Jay is a flourishing community and "tribe of women we’ve built," she beams.

"I think South Asian women are so starved of content, we’ve got amazing and incredible male, brown, South Asian comedians but where are the brown ladies at? Certainly there’s this hunger because when I’m trauma-bonding with these South Asian women in the Soho Theatre bar, it’s like ‘where were you when I was 15?’. But who did I have when I was 15? We didn’t have these role models, but I think the tide is changing now, especially with social media.”

You wouldn't be able to helm a podcast about sex and relationships without getting personal, and it's the raw honesty of Brown Girls Do It Too that has seen it go from stride to stride, now entering into this new form after the final emotional episode was released in April earlier this year.

It's easy to be forthright and honest when you're sitting down with a microphone in a studio, but how does that translate to Jay's work in the TV industry? Having directed Young, British and Anti-Abortion most recently, she details how her raw and open honesty actually started with TV because of her upbringing.

"I grew up in a community that said ‘don’t do anything because what would people think’. So my whole life, I was constantly told you have to act a certain way, be a certain way, be obedient, dress right, you have to be a good girl," she explains.

Jay started off her career journey with dreams of being a doctor, going on to work in the NHS but soon realising that medicine "required a certain level of discipline that I did not have". Thanks to a BBC Academy journalism internship and a supportive mentor who nudged her in the direction of a journalism masters, Jay went into the chaotic world of radio news.

Leaving that behind, she went on to work as a researcher on a documentary about the Rana Plaza factory disaster. They were looking for someone from a Bengali background and, in Jay's words, she "smashed" the job and "never looked back".

"In 2013 I started working in documentaries and then, this is slightly embarrassing but I’ll say it because I’m okay with it, but I really wanted to be a reporter. I wanted to be a news reporter, I kept thinking ‘my time is going to come’ but it never came because I was constantly being passed – the opportunities were going to other, predominantly white reporters," she says.

"In 2019, sort of working my way up the various different chains in the documentary world, I picked up a camera on 24 Hours in Police Custody. Initially, I didn’t want to pick it up but I was just being lazy.

"I picked it up and was like ‘Oh my god, I love directing, I love being behind the camera.’ I think the reality is, when you come from a working class background (don’t let the teeth and the accent fool you), your parents are poor and you grew up poor, you are constantly told – it’s that immigrant mentality – ‘you have to work four times as hard’. Also, we’re in the hustle culture, right? You’re constantly doing as much as you can to get noticed," she says.

That do-it-all essence can be seen clearly in Young, British and Anti-Abortion which, as well as tackling a challenging subject matter, sees Jay self-shoot contributors while interviewing them, a challenging role that Jay actually relishes.

"I love that authored style – Deeyah Khan started it, also Molly Dineen. I love being able to combine the two, like it’s authored but it’s also about you and following you, my interaction with you. It feels very Gonzo, Nick Broomfield-esque but women doing it rather than a guy doing it," she says.

Having to think about things like framing and lighting while also quizzing contributors about difficult subject matters is certainly not a walk in the park but in TV, Jay says, you're not allowed to fail or make mistakes.

"When you’re from a minority ethnic community and you fail, it’s all word of mouth in my industry and it’s like ‘Oh don’t hire Poppy, she screwed up.’ But I always say this: through making mistakes is when you learn to be creative," she says.

Having presented and directed the likes of Young, British and Anti-Abortion, Young, Black and Right Wing and Isis: The British Women Supporters Unveiled, it's safe to say that Jay doesn't shy away from tough topics or conversations. Jay confesses that she loves taking risks, even though the industry she's in doesn't always appreciate that.

"They want a safe pair of hands, they want a BAFTA nominated or BAFTA winning director, usually white, usually male who is guaranteed to bring them success. And what is happening now is we’re not breaking new talent."

When it comes to those discussions around diversity within TV, Jay admits that she wouldn't "have felt brave to have those conversations even 5/10 years ago".

Jay explains that in the wake of major events like COVID, Black Lives Matter, the murder of Sarah Everard and even the #MeToo movement, they "really compelled a lot of my female colleagues/directors to speak out," about diversity and representation.

"I mostly hire women and I work with women from minority ethnic backgrounds. I will always do that going forward," Jay says.

"I think the tide is turning and I notice, certainly with my Black colleagues post-George Floyd and BLM, I feel like a lot of us were enabled and empowered to speak out about all the micro-aggressions we experience in our community. I don’t think enough change has happened, quite frankly. But I am seeing directors, producers from a minority ethnic background.

"I don’t think it’s enough, I think we need to see more of us. The tide is turning. In terms of representation and the D-word, diversity, that’s just a conversation that we keep having all the time – honestly, it’s getting so boring. I feel like sometimes we are put into a category and it still feels like a ticking exercise, it’s not the norm, it’s not the mainstream."

As of now, on top of their monumental Edinburgh Fringe tour, Jay also wants to continue to hone her craft in the realm of documentary making. Saying that though, she does reveal that Brown Girls Do It Too has excitingly been optioned for a drama, when I ask her if the podcast has any dreams of hitting the screen.

"Me and Rubina are talking to a company. We want to make the brown I May Destroy You, with a bit of Fleabag. I mean, that would be iconic for me," she reveals.

Will Jay be bringing her TV prowess to the production? "Rubina and I would love to write an episode or a few episodes, and I would love to direct because I want to get into drama," she says.

"This is the thing, probably with ADHD, it’s like ‘I’ve done this, I’ve done this’. I need to learn my craft, I’ve got a lot to learn in documentary but one day in the future, I would love to direct a Brown Girls Do It Too episode."

After their month at Edinburgh Fringe, Jay and Pabani will return to London's Soho Theatre but in Walthamstow. The newer venue seats 950 people, a figure that Jay isn't confident they'll fill.

"Asians, we roll in big families so I’m going to have to ask every cousin, every family member," she jokes. But more importantly, the September shows in Walthamstow act as a homecoming for a "Waltham Forest girl" who maybe never quite dreamed of taking to the stage as a theatre performer – but can revel in adding the role to an already plentiful and blossoming career.

Young, British and Anti-Abortion is available to stream on BBC iPlayer.

Brown Girls Do It Too: Mama Told Me Not To Come is being performed at Underbelly at the Edinburgh Fringe from 30th July to 24th August and will then head to Soho Theatre Walthamstow from 9th-13th September.

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