Rob Rinder and Rylan speak openly on death, parenthood and how everyone thinks they’re together

Because of their obvious differences, they work brilliantly together as a team: Rob is posh, urbane, wordy; Rylan is sweary, very Essex and straight to the point. Rylan is 36 and 6ft 4in, Rob is 47 and quite a few inches shorter. But the longer you watch them, the more you see their similarities. Which are not so much the obvious things (male, gay and single at the time), but the more subtle ones; Rylan can be as angsty as Rob in his own way, while Rob can be as potty-mouthed as Rylan.

We meet at a café in London. They love their show and are keen to know what I think. “Did you like it? Honestly?” Rob asks me anxiously. “That means a lot to me.”

“I’m glad you enjoyed it,” Rylan adds. “The second album is always a worry!”

These two were friends before they made the Italy series but didn’t know each other that well. By the time they had done India, they say they couldn’t have known each other better. Both say that, unlike so much documentary TV, there isn’t a single scene that is set up beforehand.

So, when Rylan thinks he’s going to die travelling on a rickshaw in the Delhi traffic it’s honest and heartfelt. Ditto when Rob throws a tantrum at the thought of seeing street puppetry because it’s not true art (it turns out to be his highlight of the tour). Then there is the time they visit an astrologer.

“That was without doubt the funniest moment in my life,” Rob says.

“It’s not mine,” Rylan replies with a snarl. “F**king astrologer.”

The astrologer in question tells Rob that he’s lovely when he’s in a good mood, but a horror when he’s not.

“Yes, but that’s true and we both know that,” comments Rylan. “I felt seen,” adds Rob, before Rylan explains his side of the story: “Then he comes to me and says you’ve got psychiatric problems, you’re basically a slut, you’re going to get gout and you’ll never be happy!”

“But you disproportionately took the negatives,” says Rob.

“What were the positives in that?” replies Rylan indignantly.

By this point, Rob is hooting with laughter just thinking about it. “Then Rylan said Russell Grant wouldn’t have said that to me…”

“Well he wouldn’t,” says Rylan. “I think if you’re a psychic, and someone comes to you for a reading and you know they’re going to be hit by a bus and die you don’t tell them that. He should not have said them things to me. For someone who’s apparently the best in the world, he weren’t that nice.”

Rob and Rylan’s Italian Grand Tour was broadcast last May and both men were recently divorced. “That was more about us realising who we were after shit times, and realising there’s a world out there,” Rylan says. “This is more about ‘now we know who we are, we’re finding out what we want to get out of life’.”

He thinks the Grand Tour made the public see them differently. “It made people not look at Rob as just the judge who used to sit there on daytime TV and bang his gavel. And maybe it made people think I’m not as stupid as I make out.”

Anybody who has followed Rylan’s career will realise there’s nothing stupid about the former X Factor contestant. He can be controversial, however, and while that is undoubtedly part of his charm, it also gets him into hot water. The week after we meet, he was a guest host on This Morning and caused a national hoo-ha during a segment on immigration by appearing to suggest that asylum seekers are routinely put up at swish hotels complete with games rooms, given iPads and access to the NHS on arrival and lead a cushy life in Britain.

A somewhat simplified and inaccurate view of the facts. According to Refugee Action, asylum seekers are those who come to the UK seeking safety and many are not allowed to work. Those housed in hotels, where meals are provided, receive a weekly allowance from the Government of £9.95 or £49.18 if they are self-catering.

Hardly the lap of luxury inferred by Rylan – who has presenting duties at ITV, is a voice at Radio 2, and has, in effect, played himself on Doctor Who – yet his comments had more impact than those of many politicians and show what an influential figure he is today.

Some praised his plain speaking, but others accused him of fanning the flames of xenophobia – without a handle on the facts – in an already incendiary political environment.

In what seems to have been an attempt to dampen the furore, he later posted on social media that “You can be pro-immigration and against illegal routes” and while he prefaced his comments on This Morning by saying this is “the narrative we are being fed,” he didn’t challenge it at the time.

With the benefit of hindsight, Rylan may well wish he had had Rob by his side to temper his views. He was certainly glad to have his support when they arrived in India. Rob had been there before and he adores it. Rylan hadn’t and initially hated it. What does Rob love about it?

He looks at Rylan. “I’m going to get into trouble with you for being twatty.”

“Here we go!” says Rylan.

“It’s just a rich tapestry of colour everywhere,” says Rob.

“Here we go!” says Rylan once again.

“I’m obsessed with it,” counters Rob. “The contrasts! I love smell and clunk and complexity and life and sound and India has all of that.”

“I didn’t,” responds Rylan emphatically. “I got off the plane, went through passport control and got bit on my face. Then I was thrown into a rickshaw and I genuinely thought I was going to die. It was a huge culture shock. I’ve never been anywhere like that before in my life.”

“You’re very adaptable,” say Rob. “I didn’t expect you to adapt as well.”

Rylan nods. “Yeah, that’s what I learnt about myself. I didn’t expect to adapt so well either.”

Of course, this being Rob and Rylan we get to learn plenty about the two of them. For example, their backgrounds are more similar than you’d think. Both were brought up by their mothers and are close to them. Rob admits that his poshness is a construct. He didn’t come from a well-to-do family, but he was determined to create a persona for himself.

“It’s artifice,” he says.

Rylan grins. “He’s as rough as arseholes, he is.”

“Not quite arseholes,” replies Rob. “Dad’s a taxi driver. Rylan and I perceive the world in the same way. We’re born into similar values, similar views.”

Rylan’s coke and burger arrives. “Is this real Coke or the Mickey Mouse coke?” he asks the waiter.

“Mariah!” Rob proclaims, comparing Rylan with singer Mariah Carey, allegedly renowned for her diva-ish tendencies. “That’s his rider. It’s got to be proper Coca-Cola.”

Is he more Mariah than you, I wonder, to which Rob replies, “Oh my God, yes!”

Rylan interjects. “Ask Bea for real answers. She’s our makeup artist and our therapist.”

Bea is sitting with us. She points to Rob.

“Me more Mariah! Whaaaaaaat? Oh my God! In what way? We have different Mariahs.”

“My Mariah is travel and accommodation,” explains Rylan. “I’ve got to travel comfortably.

I don’t care where you put me in the day as long as I go back to a nice hotel suite. Everything else I can deal with.”

“I want to be left alone to read,” says Rob.

“And gym,” says Bea.

“And swim,” adds Rylan. “And he gets up at 3am!”

“I don’t sleep very much,” Rob concedes.

As in Italy, they spend a lot of time viewing art, with Rob providing the commentary. Much of it revolves around sex and death, which is perfectly apt because they are two subjects that fascinate them. They visit the sites of ancient erotic art in Khajuraho and are entranced by the joyous depictions of sexuality. “We have so many conversations about sex and shame and the body, but at the centre of ancient Indian cultural and religious life is the celebration of sex,” Rob says. “And there are lots of feminist examples in the depictions of sex – women on top, for example.” Rylan nods enthusiastically, “I’ve never seen so many vaginas in stone.”

They segue from sex to love and relationships. Rylan says he’d love to father children. “I really want to have kids. I’ve got a lot of love to give.” For Rob, it doesn’t seem so straightforward. “I’m over a decade older and when I came out that wasn’t on the buffet of possibility,” he says. “It wasn’t in the conversation. It was very rare.” Rylan reminds him he’s only 47. “And we live in a world where age isn’t really a problem no more. And sexuality isn’t a problem.”

It’s funny, I say, that so many people assume you are in a relationship. “I’ll give you two reasons why,” Rylan says. “Everyone thinks we’re together because we’re doing this show and we show each other affection. And two, I think people still presume that two gay guys who get on must be together; that two gay men can’t just be mates. My mum gets people saying congratulations to her.”

Rob nods. “People say Mazel Tov to my mum.”

“He don’t help when we get pictures taken of us at events and he’s looking up at me adoringly,” quips Rylan.

“How am I not supposed to look up?” wails Rob. “To look in your eyes, I need a step ladder.”

“I love him,” Rylan assures me, “but if we were in a relationship I’d be in prison because I would have smothered him with a pillow by now. That’s what marriage is, isn’t it? Row all the time and don’t have sex. We’re in a proper marriage. Rob’s seen me naked, I’ve seen Rob naked, that’s how close we are. But nothing’s gone in anything.”

“No way!” Rob squirms but Rylan out-squirms him. “It would feel like incest.”

While making the series last year, they were both single. Are they still? For once, Rylan is discombobulated. “Yes. No. What?” he replies.

“I’m single,” Rob says.

“Rob’s single,” confirms Rylan, before pausing to say he’s the world’s worst liar. “OK, I am seeing someone and I’m happy.”

How long has he had a boyfriend?

“Nope, we’re not doing that,” he refutes before Rob assures me that this unnamed “boyfriend” is “nice” and Rylan agrees that he’s “content. At the moment”.

Their mothers play a prominent role in the series, whether via video call or the men chatting about them. Both are clearly terrified of them dying. Rob says his terror of death in general has held him back from making the most of life. When they visit Varanasi, the city on the Ganges where thousands of people are cremated each year in DIY ceremonies and released into the river Ganges so they can reach Nirvana, it has a huge impact on both of them.

“The dark shadow of death and the fear of it is a present force and has always been for me,” Rob says. “The looming idea it’s going to end. The unknown is the great terror. In my life one’s been taught to fear death, and to be confronted by it so viscerally and visually and literally, and to consequently have the strange epiphany that all of us are here in a fleeting way, there’s a real liberation in that. I’m obsessed with Shelley’s poem Ozymandias.” Rylan rolls his eyes.

“It’s a love letter to time. The traveller from an antique land sees this great big deity. ‘My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’” Rylan yawns.

“And he walks off and just realises it’s a ruin and the desert is all boundless and bare,” Rob continues. “The point is you think everything that is permanent and causing you concern is going to fade and disappear.”

For Rylan it’s all a bit simpler. “I’m more worried about losing my mum than losing my own life.

I feel like coming back from Varanasi was eye-opening. It made me realise I’ve just got to enjoy things I’m doing, and if I’m not enjoying it, then don’t f**king do it.”

However differently they express it, both say that India has taught them the importance of living in the present. I ask them what they find annoying about each other.

Rob looks at Rylan. “That you will not read.”

“I ain’t got time to read a book,” he replies. “Sometimes he will get so in his own head when he don’t need to. He will overthink and overcomplicate situations. So, I’ll see a path in front of us and there’s a bit of broken glass there, a couple of pissed-up people there, and a hole in the ground. And Rob will be: ‘We can’t do this! We can’t!’ And I’m like, ‘Rob, we walk around the glass and walk around those people.’ Rather than walk down the path and avoid the glass and stuff, he’ll get a book out to find out how do I get rid of broken glass, how do I fill a hole?’”

Rob laughs. “It’s so true.”

What do they love about each other?

Rob on Rylan: “I love his natural intelligence.”

Rylan on Rob: “What I love about Rob is that he’s a walking, talking encyclopaedia so you can say ‘That’s not right, why?’ and he can answer it. But he’s not seen it. So, then we go and see it.

I take his books, and he takes my eyes.”

“That’s such a clever way of putting it,” says Rob as he looks at Rylan affectionately. “You’d be here twice as long just with me – I’d be talking about Foucault and the origins of how shame emerges from sex through the Christian church. And you don’t need any of that.”

Rylan grins; his teeth bright enough to see your reflection in. “Who?” he says.

The latest issue of Radio Times is out now – subscribe here.

Rob and Rylan's Passage to India airs on BBC Two on Sunday 14th September at 9pm (with all episodes on iPlayer).

Add Rob and Rylan's Passage to India to your watchlist on the Radio Times: What to Watch app – download now for daily TV recommendations, features and more.

Check out more of our Documentaries coverage or visit our TV Guide and Streaming Guide to find out what's on. For more TV recommendations and reviews, listen to The Radio Times Podcast.