Six Nations podcasters James Haskell and Mike Tindall talk landing Prince William and Princess Kate as guests on their show

It’s hardly enough for a line-out, and certainly not a scrum. But two big men joined by one smaller man is just the right amount for a very successful podcast.

First broadcast in 2020, The Good, the Bad & the Rugby features former England rugby union internationals Mike Tindall and James Haskell, and journalist Alex Payne. Tindall, 47, a centre, was part of the 2003 World Cup-winning team. Haskell, 40, a flanker, famously played with a back injury in England’s 2016 Six Nations grand slam victory against France. Payne, 45, the smaller one, adeptly holds things together.

It’s one of the world’s biggest rugby podcasts – the trio now sell out live tours and received the royal seal of approval when they recorded an episode with Princess Anne and the Prince and Princess of Wales at Windsor Castle; something Tindall, who is married to the Princess Royal’s daughter Zara Phillips, called upon family connections to get. “That was special,” he says, when we talk. “Everything I hoped it would be.”

Counterintuitively, the show’s success might be down to its comparative lack of rugby minutiae. “We’re not really interested in ruck laws and scrum laws,” says Tindall, “We’re interested in the people. This is a very masculine sport.

"You have to be a warrior on the field, but you can’t ever show your pain. What we’re trying to do is show that people do have emotions, to peel back a few layers.”

They do this by mixing emotional openness with dressing-room banter. “Some of us are more bombastic than others,” says Tindall, possibly thinking of Haskell, who arrives late as he has been at a “diversity and inclusion” session. “I learnt workplace banter is absolutely fine,” Haskell says. “As long as it’s not funny, directed at anybody, or says anything of any remote interest.” He’s jesting, I think, and so is Payne when he says, “Working with James for eight years has driven me to a therapist.”

As Tindall points out: “James has seen a therapist since he was 17 years old, to try and maximise the best out of what he could do while he was playing, and that’s continued post-career.”

Consequently, Haskell is very serious about the mental health of young men. “You’ve got guys like Andrew Tate, false prophets that people are now adhering to,” he says. “A lot of young men are left behind, not going to university, not doing the things that they should do.” Haskell quotes an unsettling statistic: “Male suicide is still up, and it’s still the biggest killer of men under 40. It’s something that’s got to be addressed.”

Rugby union isn’t short of other issues to address. There’s turmoil at club level, a continuing debate about concussion and the shadow of Motor Neurone Disease. That condition claimed the life of Scotland’s Doddie Weir (and rugby league’s Rob Burrow) and there have been more recent diagnoses for union’s Ed Slater and Lewis Moody, although Tindall says we shouldn’t presume it was caused by playing rugby.

“It isn’t as simple as hits and concussive blows,” he says. “I think we spend a lot of time in rugby telling negative stories, but what’s special about rugby is, if it does happen to one of our own, the sport rallies around people that have been affected and the community comes together.” In 2023 the trio launched the award-winning Blackeye Gin, through which, says Payne, “We’re trying to raise a million quid a year for injured rugby players.”

But it’s former players’ mental health issues, often after their international careers, that feature regularly on the podcast. Joe Marler, a guest star on the show, has been public about his own struggles. Now, Marler is admired by millions after his tenure on Celebrity Traitors. Payne is pleased, but also frustrated by the game’s failure to make the most of such an asset in an age where young fans follow players rather than teams.

“It’s sad that a character as big as Joe Marler has had to go on The Traitors to unlock his full potential,” he says. “Rugby cuts off its tallest poppies, and that’s something that it needs to address if it wants to get some of that high-profile exposure.”

High-profile exposure isn’t always positive. Haskell recalls a festival last year where he made a joke about his divorce from Chloe Madeley (daughter of TV hosts Richard Madeley and Judy Finnigan): “‘If I put as much effort into my marriage as I did into finding the perfect pint of Guinness, I’d still be married.’ That was reported as, ‘James Haskell admits his drinking problem got in the way…’”

If happiness requires self-awareness, Haskell appears to be going the right way. “With entertainment and fun, you can often become the worst version of yourself to sell that amusement,” he says. “But there’s a real depth to what we do, that’s why the podcast has lasted so long.”

But hang on, we haven’t talked about the rugby – which home nation can win, England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland? “It’ll come down to a grand-slam game at the end between England and France,” says Tindall.

“Well, I won’t bet my house on England,” says Payne. Haskell shakes his head: “England are brilliant, they will win the grand slam.” But then, he would say that, wouldn’t he?

Check out more of our Sport coverage or visit our TV Guide and Streaming Guide to find out what's on. For more TV recommendations and reviews, listen to The Radio Times Podcast.