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As Sir Alan Sugar's sternfaced henchmen, Margaret Mountford (56) and Nick Hewer (64) rarely crack a smile. They are the ears and eyes of the show and their carefully chosen words can make or break the career of candidates on The Apprentice.
But slowly, inadvertently, they're becoming co-stars of the show, with audiences as curious about them as they are about Sir Alan. Away from the boardroom, Nick's trademark stony, steely-eyed frown is replaced by a big grin, while Margaret's eyes twinkle with merriment rather than roll with despair. "We only have two expressions each, as everyone knows," says Margaret drily.
Today, the show's most reluctant stars sit down to discuss their newfound fame, the best and the worst of the candidates and what it's really like to work for their irascible boss.
How much arm twisting did Sir Alan do to make you sign up to the show?
Nick: Once you work for Alan, you never quite escape. I'd say he muscularly cajoled me into it. I wasn't working for him at the time, but he rang me up and said he wanted to do the show and I could be an adviser. In all honesty, I really fought against it and he got really irritated, as only he can, and he said, "Of course, if you don't think you can do it…"
Margaret: Alan was one of my clients when I worked for City [of London] law firm Herbert Smith and then I went on the board of Amstrad [Sir Alan's electronics company] as a non-executive director. I think it was Simon, one of his sons, who said "Why don't you ask Margaret?", because the format of the show called for a woman. I didn't know anything about television, but I thought it had to present the advisers in a good light, because if we look like idiots, the programme loses its credibility.
Had you and Nick worked closely together before?
Margaret: When I was at Herbert Smith, if Amstrad or Tottenham [Hotspur FC, where Sir Alan was chairman and a major shareholder] were doing some deal that required a public aspect, Nick would be doing the PR side of it and I'd be doing the legal side. I spent 25 years saying to clients, "Don't talk to the press."
Nick: Margaret would sometimes banish me from the meeting room. Now we have a very good friendship.
Margaret: When we're each watching our respective teams, occasionally our paths cross, which is such a welcome relief. We can have a laugh together.
Nick: Because there's not much to laugh about during the filming.
Why not?
Margaret: It's bloody hard work.
Nick: The first task of the current series kicked off at 5am and finished at 3:15am the next morning and then started again at 8:15am.
Margaret: You have to be fair to the candidates, however ghastly they are. If one of them is doing well, they deserve to have that fed back, and if one of them is making a botch of everything, then they should be held accountable. And you can only tell that if you're there.
Do any of them try to suck up to you two?
Margaret: Jenny Celerier [a candidate "fired" last month ] would oil up to me. I'm apparently a role model for her… God help her!
Nick: I've had them sidling up a bit and whispering sweet nothings, but actually it's a mark against them.
Margaret: Katie [Hopkins, from series three] thought she had to just flutter her eyelashes. I wouldn't have favourites, but it's easy to have "un-favourites".
Nick: Syed [Ahmed, in series two] was the worst.
Margaret: We always slag Syed off in every interview, so we're not going to do it now. [Emphasising] Syed was a very nice boy. Whereas Matthew [Palmer] on the first series walked around with a copy of Alan's autobiography under his arm.
You should have tested him on it to see if he'd read it.
Margaret: I'd have had to read it myself to do that, wouldn't I?
Can you predict from the start who's going to be the winner?
Margaret: People change during the course of it. You can always get dark horses: people who underplay their strengths and people who exaggerate their abilities. Mostly they exaggerate.
Nick: Claire [Young] was rather shouty but suddenly changed; now she's less dominant and less abusive.
Margaret: Her problem was the way she behaved to everyone else. Bossy, bossy. If you look at Lee [McQueen], he seems to get more yobby.
Nick: Jenny [Celerier] was very promising. I thought, "This girl is very good" but suddenly it turned out she was a dishonest, lying, cheating rotter. Lucinda [Ledgerwood], who I thought was a Daffy Duck from a different planet, has suddenly become quite shrewd and political.
Margaret: I know quite a few people who had their money on Raef [Bjayou, fired last month] to win. He was always immaculate. It was terribly funny when they showed everyone dashing round getting ready in the morning, but he was making his bed.
Nick: That's public school for you.
How hard is it not to intervene when something is going wrong?
Margaret: Instinctively, I like to take control as I'm so good at everything [laughs]. The most difficult thing I find is when they're doing kitchen things and I just want to stir it or add a bit of this or that.
Who have been the best candidates in any series?
Margaret: It was on series one. Tim Campbell [the winner] - such a nice chap. Saira Khan and Miriam Staley. Even Paul Torrisi, with the benefit of hindsight, though I wouldn't have said so at the time. But I don't know if that's a fair comment, because then it was new to all of us. Ruth Badger [runner-up in series two] had a lot going for her; I like "the Badger".
Do you think there's a serious purpose to the show?
Nick: That's the only reason Alan got involved. If young kids just learn the basic lessons about margin and location and negotiation and selling, that's brilliant.
What's the best way to get around Sir Alan?
Margaret: The youth thing. He does make allowances for people without the common sense, gravitas or moderation that some learn with years. He's a soft spot for those who've had a hard start. But if someone who was brought up on one crust of bread a week, living in a cardboard box, makes a complete mess of things in task one, they are still going to go.
Nick: When the game is absolutely up for somebody, they've all discovered the only escape route is "Give me one more chance to prove myself as project manager". I think that's been exhausted now.
Margaret: Or "I'll give 110 per cent".
Nick: No, "I'll give 140 per cent".
Is there a cuddly side to Sir Alan we don't see on the show?
Nick: He has a very sharp wit. He's a very funny man and that gets cut out. His family always say, "Dad, why are you always portrayed as grumpy and Mr Angry?" But the producers know what gets the audience is Alan being tough. In the boardroom, he's a tour de force. The show has been a wonderful change for him: when he was at Tottenham, people were very unkind, screaming abuse and spitting at him and scratching his cars.
Margaret: He's a kind, generous, loyal person. People work for him for years and years, which says something - and it's not because they get overpaid!
Nick: Apart from the lawyers… Sir Alan celebrated his 40th wedding anniversary recently and you would have seen a very different man from the one you see on television. There were friends he'd known for 40 years from the old Hackney council estate, not celebrities.
Would you have gone on a show like The Apprentice when you were starting out in business?
Nick: I certainly wouldn't. We're reserved people. We aren't scrappers.
Margaret: And I was a lawyer.
Plenty of candidates claiming to be lawyers have been on the show…
Margaret: Absolutely, but I was a real lawyer.
Did you ever imagine you'd be spending your retirement doing something like this?
Margaret: I don't like to call it "retirement". It's my post-lawyer time. I'm supposed to be doing a PhD in papyrology [the study of ancient manuscripts written on papyrus].
Nick: It's sort of flattering and startling still. People shout "Nick" at me out of car windows in France where I live, which is rather embarrassing, because it means something rather rude in French. And strangers come up and talk to me about tractors, because they know I collect them. We have our feet on the ground, so we're not swept off in some sort of crazy showbiz world.
And finally a slightly awkward question…
Margaret: No, we're not going to get married!
Nick: Actually, you've rather spoilt it now, because I was going to ask you later.
There's a rumour that Margaret may have invested in a pair of Lee's novelty knickers from this year's bridalwear task.
Margaret: No, they don't come in my size, dear. But I think Nick may have bought a pair.
Nick: I think we should move away from the spangly thong line of questioning.
Interview by Jenny Eden
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